This is excellent! I completely agree with you. I am a cradle Evangelical, but 80% of the churches I’ve attended were/are more focused on self-reflection and emotional/spiritual experiences than on intellect or theology.
In my 20s, I started attending a Calvary Chapel. I spent 12 years there and I am thankful for it as that particular one was heavy on Biblical apologetics. But I used to ask the pastor “how do we know this? How did we come to know this?” all the time. He never once pointed me to the apostolic fathers and other early church writings. I wish he had. In my 40s now, I’m just starting to scratch the surface to learn my own church history. I have read theology for years out of enjoyment and curiosity, but I have no one to talk to about it unless I corner my husband or sons and they oblige me for a few minutes. I desperately wish I had a handful of “high information” Christians to sit down by the fire with. Evangelicals really take a beating from the other traditions, and I know why. I have read and known many Evangelical intellects and scholars, but they are not receiving their education from the pulpit. It’s sad. You are correct that the whole church is secularizing, and I believe the pastors are not exempt from this influence.
I guess I am lucky, my priest (Orthodox) makes a point to educate during his homily. He will point out translation issues and what the epistle or gospel reading means, and also what the original context was. I agree that most of the recent converts are much better catechized. However, particularly in Orthodoxy there is more to the faith than the intellectual side, as Orthodoxy is a lot about participation that draws people in, even without the education. But I agree that there has been a real loss in understanding the depth of the scriptures and faith.
Great priest! I think the participation in the liturgy drawing people in can be said, or at least should be said, about all the liturgical Christian traditions. As I am not a very, shall we say, naturally spiritual person, I tend to gravitate toward the intellectual tradition more than others and am more likely to emphasize it; however, I know people whose conversions to Orthodoxy and Catholicism have been much more spiritual, aesthetic, and relational than intellectual.
Very true but maybe not bad. People don't give a shit about catechism and there's a very high possibility that Christ wouldn't have either. People are craving the essence - that part of Christianity that they can relate to because it speaks the language of the heart - that in their core they can say, yes yes this is truth - when you hear the parable of the good samaritan, the parable of the prodigal son, these are deep spiritual truths which speak to the heart, and which and can be legitimately believed. We all labor under the burden of living in the year 2024 - we can't expect people to believe like it is Ireland in 1623 - yet the core of spirituality is inherent in people, so it doesn't take much to believe... all the theological fancy stuff... yes its meaningless
One thing... about relationship with Christ.... didn't he himself give the injunction, that through love of other humans - we relate to him... worshipping the ghostly spirit.... praising God on Sunday... bah humbug, give me a good samaritan - who worships in deed and truth - any day of the week over a church christian
Great essay and it’s all sadly true. The priest at my parish told us second-graders to only confess three sins for our first reconciliation. I thought that was how it was done for every confession until sometime in high school. I went to a girls Catholic high school, and one teacher mentioned in passing that birth control was a sin in the same sense as homosexual acts were sins, but refused to elaborate. In particular I wonder why they didn’t teach us ANYTHING about NFP (it was the perfect setting!) and I only learned about NFP’s existence during marriage prep! It’s so horrible how poorly people are catechized. Even converts are not exempt—my husband’s aunt was a convert in the nineties and some of the things she says reveal such a lack of understanding as to how the Church works. Everything has to be spelled out in the Bible, no such thing as Tradition, things like that.
Catholic convert here 40 years. One priest who catechized my husband and myself would answer every question with, "Just remember Jesus loves you." He was a good man and a good priest but at the time I wanted more explanation. Luckily, I also had some time with an old monsignor who answered all my questions. A lot of theology now seems to me to be entirely pointless speculation deliberately made as opaque as possible. When I do figure it out, it disturbs me even more. One Sunday, a visiting priest's homily upset me so much I almost got up and left. It was "The Father and the Son love each other very much, so much blah etc etc etc." I was like What did I just hear? Later, I realized the sermon was about the Filioque, which I had never heard of until our adult son converted to Orthodoxy and explained that the Filioque was one of the causes of the split between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. If I could find an Eastern Rite Catholic Church I would attend but there are none around here.
I came back to the Catholic Church in 2017 after 40 yrs away. I read the Catechism of Pope Pius X to refresh my memory about what the Church teaches. It’s not the same as what many Novus Ordo priests and bishops (who adhere to Vatican II) teach. In fact, the sermons of Novus Ordo priests are largely banal, feel-good speeches that could have been given by a New Age guru. Sermons given by priests who celebrate the traditional Latin Mass are much better and explain the mysteries of the faith coherently. I have resorted to reading old sermons from pre-1900 such as the sermons of the Cure of Ars, St. Jean Vianney, and Fr. Francis Weninger (this one available from Internet Archive) for Sundays and feast days. And I do a lot of spiritual reading. What astonishes me is why I was never taught, in my 11 years of Catholic school, how to do “lectio divina” (meditation). This is such an indispensable part of the Christian life. I do it now but it would have made a difference in my spiritual life back then.
I’ve read the four main constitutions of Vatican II, I’ve read Sacrosanctum Concilium, the one on the reform of the liturgy, in particular, twice, and although I’ll blame a lot on the implementation of the council, I’m not one to blame anything on the council itself for it’s a council of the Church. Regarding your comment, the celebration of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in the US is currently artificially good because people aren’t going to drive an hour for a mediocre Extraordinary Form of the Mass. People are perfectly willing to drive five minutes for a mediocre or poorly celebrated Ordinary Form Mass. My current RC parish only has the Ordinary Form; however, it is celebrated well- we’re chanting the antiphons and singing the Mass parts in Latin- and my priest regularly preaches theologically rich homilies. Going to a random parish on vacation, as I alluded to in the beginning, often hasn’t reaped the same results. I’m also friends with several young and middle aged priests in several dioceses who mainly celebrate the Ordinary Form and strive to do so reverently and share their knowledge with the people. I, of course, cannot speak for other priests in their respective dioceses. I’m glad you’re having a good experience at your parish TLM parish. I, unfortunately, particularly as a young woman, have not had very good experiences with the types of people who tend to attend TLM parishes.
This is excellent! I completely agree with you. I am a cradle Evangelical, but 80% of the churches I’ve attended were/are more focused on self-reflection and emotional/spiritual experiences than on intellect or theology.
In my 20s, I started attending a Calvary Chapel. I spent 12 years there and I am thankful for it as that particular one was heavy on Biblical apologetics. But I used to ask the pastor “how do we know this? How did we come to know this?” all the time. He never once pointed me to the apostolic fathers and other early church writings. I wish he had. In my 40s now, I’m just starting to scratch the surface to learn my own church history. I have read theology for years out of enjoyment and curiosity, but I have no one to talk to about it unless I corner my husband or sons and they oblige me for a few minutes. I desperately wish I had a handful of “high information” Christians to sit down by the fire with. Evangelicals really take a beating from the other traditions, and I know why. I have read and known many Evangelical intellects and scholars, but they are not receiving their education from the pulpit. It’s sad. You are correct that the whole church is secularizing, and I believe the pastors are not exempt from this influence.
I guess I am lucky, my priest (Orthodox) makes a point to educate during his homily. He will point out translation issues and what the epistle or gospel reading means, and also what the original context was. I agree that most of the recent converts are much better catechized. However, particularly in Orthodoxy there is more to the faith than the intellectual side, as Orthodoxy is a lot about participation that draws people in, even without the education. But I agree that there has been a real loss in understanding the depth of the scriptures and faith.
Great priest! I think the participation in the liturgy drawing people in can be said, or at least should be said, about all the liturgical Christian traditions. As I am not a very, shall we say, naturally spiritual person, I tend to gravitate toward the intellectual tradition more than others and am more likely to emphasize it; however, I know people whose conversions to Orthodoxy and Catholicism have been much more spiritual, aesthetic, and relational than intellectual.
Very true but maybe not bad. People don't give a shit about catechism and there's a very high possibility that Christ wouldn't have either. People are craving the essence - that part of Christianity that they can relate to because it speaks the language of the heart - that in their core they can say, yes yes this is truth - when you hear the parable of the good samaritan, the parable of the prodigal son, these are deep spiritual truths which speak to the heart, and which and can be legitimately believed. We all labor under the burden of living in the year 2024 - we can't expect people to believe like it is Ireland in 1623 - yet the core of spirituality is inherent in people, so it doesn't take much to believe... all the theological fancy stuff... yes its meaningless
One thing... about relationship with Christ.... didn't he himself give the injunction, that through love of other humans - we relate to him... worshipping the ghostly spirit.... praising God on Sunday... bah humbug, give me a good samaritan - who worships in deed and truth - any day of the week over a church christian
Great essay and it’s all sadly true. The priest at my parish told us second-graders to only confess three sins for our first reconciliation. I thought that was how it was done for every confession until sometime in high school. I went to a girls Catholic high school, and one teacher mentioned in passing that birth control was a sin in the same sense as homosexual acts were sins, but refused to elaborate. In particular I wonder why they didn’t teach us ANYTHING about NFP (it was the perfect setting!) and I only learned about NFP’s existence during marriage prep! It’s so horrible how poorly people are catechized. Even converts are not exempt—my husband’s aunt was a convert in the nineties and some of the things she says reveal such a lack of understanding as to how the Church works. Everything has to be spelled out in the Bible, no such thing as Tradition, things like that.
It’s gutted, just like the mass.
Catholic convert here 40 years. One priest who catechized my husband and myself would answer every question with, "Just remember Jesus loves you." He was a good man and a good priest but at the time I wanted more explanation. Luckily, I also had some time with an old monsignor who answered all my questions. A lot of theology now seems to me to be entirely pointless speculation deliberately made as opaque as possible. When I do figure it out, it disturbs me even more. One Sunday, a visiting priest's homily upset me so much I almost got up and left. It was "The Father and the Son love each other very much, so much blah etc etc etc." I was like What did I just hear? Later, I realized the sermon was about the Filioque, which I had never heard of until our adult son converted to Orthodoxy and explained that the Filioque was one of the causes of the split between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. If I could find an Eastern Rite Catholic Church I would attend but there are none around here.
I came back to the Catholic Church in 2017 after 40 yrs away. I read the Catechism of Pope Pius X to refresh my memory about what the Church teaches. It’s not the same as what many Novus Ordo priests and bishops (who adhere to Vatican II) teach. In fact, the sermons of Novus Ordo priests are largely banal, feel-good speeches that could have been given by a New Age guru. Sermons given by priests who celebrate the traditional Latin Mass are much better and explain the mysteries of the faith coherently. I have resorted to reading old sermons from pre-1900 such as the sermons of the Cure of Ars, St. Jean Vianney, and Fr. Francis Weninger (this one available from Internet Archive) for Sundays and feast days. And I do a lot of spiritual reading. What astonishes me is why I was never taught, in my 11 years of Catholic school, how to do “lectio divina” (meditation). This is such an indispensable part of the Christian life. I do it now but it would have made a difference in my spiritual life back then.
I’ve read the four main constitutions of Vatican II, I’ve read Sacrosanctum Concilium, the one on the reform of the liturgy, in particular, twice, and although I’ll blame a lot on the implementation of the council, I’m not one to blame anything on the council itself for it’s a council of the Church. Regarding your comment, the celebration of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in the US is currently artificially good because people aren’t going to drive an hour for a mediocre Extraordinary Form of the Mass. People are perfectly willing to drive five minutes for a mediocre or poorly celebrated Ordinary Form Mass. My current RC parish only has the Ordinary Form; however, it is celebrated well- we’re chanting the antiphons and singing the Mass parts in Latin- and my priest regularly preaches theologically rich homilies. Going to a random parish on vacation, as I alluded to in the beginning, often hasn’t reaped the same results. I’m also friends with several young and middle aged priests in several dioceses who mainly celebrate the Ordinary Form and strive to do so reverently and share their knowledge with the people. I, of course, cannot speak for other priests in their respective dioceses. I’m glad you’re having a good experience at your parish TLM parish. I, unfortunately, particularly as a young woman, have not had very good experiences with the types of people who tend to attend TLM parishes.
Good message.
Thanks - we have a lot of work to do,